Are all-electrics the most climate friendly kind of auto? Not necessarily, according to a study recently released at Climate Central, when all the CO2 of the entire lifecycle of the vehicle are considered anyway. Depends a lot on the source of electricity used to charge an electric auto, with lots of regional variation, but the manufacture of a large battery incurs a large CO2 "debt" that can take a long time to work off. There is a summary of the study at: http://www.climatece...cars-2013-16318 The summary had to leave a lot out though, so if you're like me you have a lot of "Yes, but what about this" kind of questions. Lots of those questions should be answered in the actual study here: http://assets.climat...eport_Final.pdf
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5
Are all-electrics the most climate friendly kind of auto?
Started by still learning, Aug 10 2013 10:39 AM
29 replies to this topic
#5
Posted 11 August 2013 - 01:21 PM
Dingo, on 11 August 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:
Eds, I like your no grid system but what about battery and pv replacement as part of the 50 year cost?
. . . So if you want to talk Climate, you have to talk Costs.
When is the last time you fixed an electric motor or did maint. on one?
. . . How many moving parts to an EV VS gas car,
. . . . . . repairs, replacement parts, oil changes, etc.
. . . . . . there goes your money on maint. costs.
. . . Look only 12% of the energy created by gasoline
. . . . . . actually moves the tires, the rest is wasted,
. . . . . . that means your throwing away 88% of your money
. . . . . . there goes your money on operating costs.
We are already seeing projects to use ultracapacitors to replace batteries and
. . . Tesla CEO Musk says the days of batteries are numbered,
. . . ultracapacitors will power us into the future.
. . . Energy Storage cost will go down.
As PV reaches Convergence,
. . . PV costs will go down.
The price of EV's are dropping in the US, Japan, Germany, etc
. . . EV costs will go down.
Look at Cellphones, costs came down.
PV and Storage replacement part costs will be less than, original costs,
. . . making it even more affordable, for more and more people,
Transportation, Communication, Residential,
. . . the source of energy is what really makes it more "Climate friendly."
A hidden benefit is, that self-consumption of distributed energy,
. . . leads to awareness of how best to use the available energy,
. . . which produces large savings in energy efficiency.
Solar energy and EV's(large energy storage on wheels) are a natural fit.
Source: Clean cars
#6
Posted 11 August 2013 - 06:08 PM
Looks good accept the convergence is ignoring the need for baseload backup for major industrial pv applications. 2015 won't have lots of hydrogen fuel cells ready to kick in to provide storage. Still the direction looks right.
#7
Posted 11 August 2013 - 08:11 PM
I've waited 40 years for PV to get to the cost and efficiency that they are at currently,
. . . where I can see the possibility of providing emergency energy for my home and family,
. . . during the ice storms that knock out grid energy to the whole state, for a week or more.
Also a system that can cut expensive grid costs, during peak air conditioning season and
. . . a system that has no moving parts, fuel costs, that teaches me how to use energy more efficiently,
. . . pays me every day it operates, to that I can afford a larger set of batteries on wheels(an EV).
As for Base Load backup, I'll let you worry about that,
. . . you might want to do some reading up on Hybrid Ultracapacitor/Batteries.
According to Maxwell Technologies, ultracapacitors improve the reliability for grid connected,
. . . wind turbines,
. . . Solar and
. . . low-voltage ride through.
Ultracapacitor energy storage can provide ride through for the
. . . main power conversion as well as the
. . . control electronics.
They are scalable in time and power,
. . . but can cost effectively provide power from seconds to a few minutes.
. . . They have long been used as backup power for pitch control,
. . . . . . so their reliability and lifetime are proven in similar applications and environments.
Additional benefits of ultracapacitor energy storage include:
• Long life—typically in the 15 year range, depending upon operating voltage and temperature;
• Green solution—recyclable materials, no toxic chemicals;
• Scaleable—with modular designs, systems can be scaled up depending upon the wind turbine output;
• Maintenance free—capacitors do not require any regular maintenance and can be fully discharged for safe handling, and;
• Easy monitoring—simple discharge time measurements can be used to determine system health along with voltage monitoring.
Source: Maxwell
. . . where I can see the possibility of providing emergency energy for my home and family,
. . . during the ice storms that knock out grid energy to the whole state, for a week or more.
Also a system that can cut expensive grid costs, during peak air conditioning season and
. . . a system that has no moving parts, fuel costs, that teaches me how to use energy more efficiently,
. . . pays me every day it operates, to that I can afford a larger set of batteries on wheels(an EV).
As for Base Load backup, I'll let you worry about that,
. . . you might want to do some reading up on Hybrid Ultracapacitor/Batteries.
According to Maxwell Technologies, ultracapacitors improve the reliability for grid connected,
. . . wind turbines,
. . . Solar and
. . . low-voltage ride through.
Ultracapacitor energy storage can provide ride through for the
. . . main power conversion as well as the
. . . control electronics.
They are scalable in time and power,
. . . but can cost effectively provide power from seconds to a few minutes.
. . . They have long been used as backup power for pitch control,
. . . . . . so their reliability and lifetime are proven in similar applications and environments.
Additional benefits of ultracapacitor energy storage include:
• Long life—typically in the 15 year range, depending upon operating voltage and temperature;
• Green solution—recyclable materials, no toxic chemicals;
• Scaleable—with modular designs, systems can be scaled up depending upon the wind turbine output;
• Maintenance free—capacitors do not require any regular maintenance and can be fully discharged for safe handling, and;
• Easy monitoring—simple discharge time measurements can be used to determine system health along with voltage monitoring.
Source: Maxwell
#9
Posted 12 August 2013 - 09:19 AM
Dingo, on 12 August 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:
Maybe we can dispense with heavy industry and I won't have to worry about base load backup. 
We could start with the 5,900 lb Humvee (8mpg) and
. . . shrink it down to a 1,580 lb Kuebelwagen(35mpg)
. . . then make it an electric.
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#11
Posted 12 August 2013 - 09:43 AM
It's heavy industry that builds solar panels, batteries, inverters, BEV's, FCV's, hydrogen generators, fuel cells, windmills, etc.! 
Solar is now about 1% of energy, you don't have to worry about base load until you hit 30% or so. By the time solar hits 30%, BEV's and FCV's will be plentiful. Problem solved!
I think ultra capacitors could be a real game changer, unlike batteries they do not wear out with charge/discharge cycles.
Solar is now about 1% of energy, you don't have to worry about base load until you hit 30% or so. By the time solar hits 30%, BEV's and FCV's will be plentiful. Problem solved!
I think ultra capacitors could be a real game changer, unlike batteries they do not wear out with charge/discharge cycles.
#12
Posted 12 August 2013 - 11:34 AM
in real life, by 2010, 4 states in Germany were already relying on wind power for
. . . 43% to 52% of their electric power needs,
. . . without having to face any major crises, while a recent study showed
. . . that the supergrid in Europe, will able to handle up to a
. . . 70% share of electrical energy from wind
. . . in spite of its minute-by-minute intermittency.
. . . So why all the fuss, then?
If electrical demand were minimized by:
. . . . . . Distributed power generation,
. . . . . . Self-Consumption, and
. . . . . . improvements in Efficiency, for transportation, communication and residential,
. . . there would be fewer kilowatts of electrical supply for the smart grid to manage,
. . . as well as less variability for it to counterbalance.
Vehicle-to-grid storage, or V2G, is in the pipeline and
. . . is likely to come on strong at some point.
The amount of storage in those cars alone would give the grid
. . . an immense amount of swiftly rampable storage capacity,
. . . far beyond any of its needs.
What is more, the new GE “Brilliant” wind turbines
. . . already have enough battery storage within them
. . . to help to smooth out the local variability of the wind power
. . . being generated at utility-scale wind farms.
Sun and wind, it seems, are uncannily harmonious:
. . . normally complementing each other.
Renewable electric autos will be cheaper to buy, operate and maintain,
. . . with great torque, the most popular and the most climate friendly kind of auto.
Source: intermittency Solar Panel Efficiency VS Size VS Cost
. . . 43% to 52% of their electric power needs,
. . . without having to face any major crises, while a recent study showed
. . . that the supergrid in Europe, will able to handle up to a
. . . 70% share of electrical energy from wind
. . . in spite of its minute-by-minute intermittency.
. . . So why all the fuss, then?
If electrical demand were minimized by:
. . . . . . Distributed power generation,
. . . . . . Self-Consumption, and
. . . . . . improvements in Efficiency, for transportation, communication and residential,
. . . there would be fewer kilowatts of electrical supply for the smart grid to manage,
. . . as well as less variability for it to counterbalance.
Vehicle-to-grid storage, or V2G, is in the pipeline and
. . . is likely to come on strong at some point.
The amount of storage in those cars alone would give the grid
. . . an immense amount of swiftly rampable storage capacity,
. . . far beyond any of its needs.
What is more, the new GE “Brilliant” wind turbines
. . . already have enough battery storage within them
. . . to help to smooth out the local variability of the wind power
. . . being generated at utility-scale wind farms.
Sun and wind, it seems, are uncannily harmonious:
. . . normally complementing each other.
Renewable electric autos will be cheaper to buy, operate and maintain,
. . . with great torque, the most popular and the most climate friendly kind of auto.
Source: intermittency Solar Panel Efficiency VS Size VS Cost
#14
Posted 13 August 2013 - 11:02 AM
eds, on 11 August 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:
No Grid Required
eds
A couple of points.
I think the 3200kWh pa might be a wee bit optimistic.
This from a UK comparison web site that talks up the merits of solar PV so you'd maybe their sales spiel to talk it up.
So, they are estimating 1500kWh pa.from a 2kW system.
To get the 3000kWh/year would require an available roof area of of over 17 feet by 17 feet.on a suitably orientated roof.
And that's a constraint for very many.
#15
Posted 13 August 2013 - 12:06 PM
I could be wrong, but as I understand it, roof top PV,
. . . is currently in the range of about 15% (I hate percentages) and
. . . because the panels are flat, they only capture about 60% of the Sun light,
. . . In my area, that comes down to about 4 hours of charging a day,
Which means, you need a lot of panels to fully charge the batteries.
Good quality panels(Not cheap) can even capture low light(clouds, shade trees, etc)
. . . But Tracking makes the panels face the sun all day long, adding about 40%.
. . . (Meaning that you need less panels)
Personally, I intend to NOT put PV on my roof for 2 reasons:
1st I have a metal roof. A few feet of snow and ice on it, get a warm day and
. . . Everything, comes sliding off, and I mean everything comes slamming down.
2nd, Being retired, I have the time to collect every bit of energy I can and
. . . really put a non-roof PV tracking system to the test.
. . . is currently in the range of about 15% (I hate percentages) and
. . . because the panels are flat, they only capture about 60% of the Sun light,
. . . In my area, that comes down to about 4 hours of charging a day,
Which means, you need a lot of panels to fully charge the batteries.
Good quality panels(Not cheap) can even capture low light(clouds, shade trees, etc)
. . . But Tracking makes the panels face the sun all day long, adding about 40%.
. . . (Meaning that you need less panels)
Personally, I intend to NOT put PV on my roof for 2 reasons:
1st I have a metal roof. A few feet of snow and ice on it, get a warm day and
. . . Everything, comes sliding off, and I mean everything comes slamming down.
2nd, Being retired, I have the time to collect every bit of energy I can and
. . . really put a non-roof PV tracking system to the test.
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#16
Posted 13 August 2013 - 12:34 PM
eds, on 13 August 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:
I could be wrong, but as I understand it, roof top PV,
. . . is currently in the range of about 15% (I hate percentages) and
. . . is currently in the range of about 15% (I hate percentages) and
When I first moved to England I lived in a flat in what you'd consider to be an apartment building.
I think it had 18 storeys - I lived on the 13th.
There were, as I recall, four dwellings on each.level.- 72 in total with maybe enough roof space for about an 8kW panel. Clearly not a practical proposition for charging a vehicle per dwelling.
This not a unique situation. London, New York, Hong Kong, Taipei, Shanghai.......the big cities where a large proportion of the population lives have the same practical issues.
#17
Posted 13 August 2013 - 01:08 PM
Think "building-integrated photovoltaic (BIPV)"
The "Le Kuklos" revolving restaurant in Leysin, Switzerland was recently fitted with 10 solar panels
. . . to keep it revolving those 360º in 1.5 hours.
At a height of 2048m, the building has room for 250 customers at a time and
. . . offers views of Lake Geneva, the Rhone Valley and Mont Blanc.
A vertical axis windmill will also be constructed,
. . . making the restaurant the first in the area powered by renewable energy.
RenewableEnergyWorld.com has awarded Conserval Systems, Inc.
. . . “best building integrated renewable” in the 2009 Renewable Energy World Awards.
The award was for Conserval System’s “Solar Wall” Photovoltaic/ Solar Thermal (PV/T) technology.
. . . The Solar Wall PV/T system employs a thermal energy heating system that uses solar energy t
. . . o pre-heat a buildings ventilation air along with photovoltaic for electricity production.
. . . The system produces 4X more electricity than a traditional photovoltaic panel and
. . . displaces up to 50% of a buildings heating fuel consumption.
The curtain wall is installed on both south and east facing walls at
. . . Konarka’s New Bedford, Massachusetts facility.
By integrating into multiple walls Konarka’s OPV curtain delivers greater electrical output
. . . than the rooftop installations favoured by most developers.
The "Le Kuklos" revolving restaurant in Leysin, Switzerland was recently fitted with 10 solar panels
. . . to keep it revolving those 360º in 1.5 hours.
At a height of 2048m, the building has room for 250 customers at a time and
. . . offers views of Lake Geneva, the Rhone Valley and Mont Blanc.
A vertical axis windmill will also be constructed,
. . . making the restaurant the first in the area powered by renewable energy.
RenewableEnergyWorld.com has awarded Conserval Systems, Inc.
. . . “best building integrated renewable” in the 2009 Renewable Energy World Awards.
The award was for Conserval System’s “Solar Wall” Photovoltaic/ Solar Thermal (PV/T) technology.
. . . The Solar Wall PV/T system employs a thermal energy heating system that uses solar energy t
. . . o pre-heat a buildings ventilation air along with photovoltaic for electricity production.
. . . The system produces 4X more electricity than a traditional photovoltaic panel and
. . . displaces up to 50% of a buildings heating fuel consumption.
The curtain wall is installed on both south and east facing walls at
. . . Konarka’s New Bedford, Massachusetts facility.
By integrating into multiple walls Konarka’s OPV curtain delivers greater electrical output
. . . than the rooftop installations favoured by most developers.
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#19
Posted 13 August 2013 - 02:27 PM
Plug in America
Source: Gas VS Elec car pluginamerica
Source: Gas VS Elec car pluginamerica
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#20
Posted 13 August 2013 - 06:03 PM
eds, there is no need for a metal roof to stop you. I have a recycled rubber roof and it also provides an avalanche when it heats up. The solar panels actually break that up so I don't get a whole sheet at once. Considering my front door is on the same side as the panels, my panels are a de facto safety device!
Here is a neat tool you can play with to do a number of "what if" scenarios, it's free! I planned my system with it. http://www.sma-ameri.../downloads.html takes you to downloads. Choose software then Sunny Design. Great little tool! It allows you to choose from hundreds of solar panels and a dozen of their inverters. You even specify the city you live near and your mounting orientation and elevation. In return it gives you efficiency and annual returns. I think it even has an option for tracking if you still want to do that.
Here is a neat tool you can play with to do a number of "what if" scenarios, it's free! I planned my system with it. http://www.sma-ameri.../downloads.html takes you to downloads. Choose software then Sunny Design. Great little tool! It allows you to choose from hundreds of solar panels and a dozen of their inverters. You even specify the city you live near and your mounting orientation and elevation. In return it gives you efficiency and annual returns. I think it even has an option for tracking if you still want to do that.
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