24 replies to this topic

[Dingo]

I'm not an ISM guy and Chris Hedges, a socialist, is a bit too conspiratorial for me, but I think he does have a point about taking power away from the corporations and instead creating real sustainable communities. It would seem to go hand in hand with decentralizing energy and dispersing it locally.

See what you think of this video.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Excellent.
Why he's labeled a socialist is beyond me; when he talks about being self sustainable, buying local
and kicking the corporate habit that America is addicted to.
Thanks for the video.

[Besoeker]

Shortpoet-GTD, on 25 July 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Excellent.
Why he's labeled a socialist is beyond me;

Maybe because he is against capitalism? And he talks about building effective social and political movements that defy power....?

Shortpoet-GTD, on 25 July 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

when he talks about being self sustainable, buying local
and kicking the corporate habit that America is addicted to.

I note his point about being self sustainable.
Not sure whether he means at individual level, family level, village level or whatever.
The particular practicalities of how to do so weren't discussed in that clip.

I guess I was lucky in that I grew up on a fairly large farm. We could have pretty much anything that grew in the ground, walked on two legs or four, produced milk, eggs,, feathers for pillows, sawn timber for fence posts......stuff.

But self-sustainable we were not. We couldn't make the circular blades for our sawmill, plough shares to till the soil, the copper conductors to get the leccy into our house, the bike that got me to school......and stuff.

As a race, we are gregarious. We have to work as a team to get things done. That, IMO, is how we developed into the society we are now. You can't have fun dancing to music if there are no musicians.

Shortpoet-GTD, on 25 July 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Thanks for the video.

It's interesting.
I don't greatly agree with much of what he says..
I also don't agree with corporations being bailed out by the taxpayer. That point I do agree with.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Besoeker, on 28 July 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

Maybe because he is against capitalism? And he talks about building effective social and political movements
that defy power....?
I also don't agree with corporations being bailed out by the taxpayer. That point I do agree with.

Then I'm a socialist too. Capitalism is consume, waste and sprawl.
Being against "the man" is in my DNA I suppose, being raised in the 60's.

Do I as a hypocrite add to it? Yes, but the least amount as possible
.
And I do agree with you that corporations shouldn't be bailed out-or subsidized. But they own the government,
so of course, they'll give themselves breaks whenever they can.

[Besoeker]

Shortpoet-GTD, on 29 July 2013 - 03:37 AM, said:

Then I'm a socialist too. Capitalism is consume, waste and sprawl.

Love it or loathe it, I think it would difficult for the world to get by without capitalism.
If, for example, you want wind turbines or solar PV, you will need semiconductors. These need sophisticated manufacturing plants and volume production to make them viable. Most industries are run by capitalists.

Waste? Well, maybe not so much. It's a competitive world we live in. For most manufacturing plants, waste either makes the product more expensive or hits the bottom line. I do some work for the paper industry. One mill making newsprint uses entirely recycled paper from which it produces 1000 tonnes a day.

If the quality of the product coming off the dry end it is recycled. Same for any trimmed off at subsequent stages of the process.

For the steel industry steel, it's a similar story. We don't have much of it in this country now but one we did work at used entirely scrap metal from the London area.

These are businesses run by capitalists. I suspect they might not exist otherwise.

Consumers on the other hand consume. We have become used to being a throw away society. If, for example, my watch failed tomorrow, would I replace or repair. It cost me all of £10/$16. Bit of a no brainer. No, I don't buy expensive watches - for me it is to tell the time, not a fashion statement.

I suppose some, maybe most, of the blame for this throw-away mentality can be laid at feet of corporate capitalists who manufacture consumer goods with built in obsolescence but I also thing that we, as consumers, also need to take some of the responsibility. Do we need to have the latest iphone, tablet, a new set of wheels.....etc.

I don't know what the answer is. We, as consumers, drive the corporate/capitalist machine. No customers, no business. As long as we want things that requires capitalists, we will have capitalists.

[Phil]

Very sorry but what a load of crap!    Yes the guy is a dyed in the wool socialist.  "We must nationalize Exxon", etc.  The problem he has is the same one OWS had, right problems, wrong solutions.  He states that Harvard teaches les se faire capitalism but we do not have that.  He is entirely correct, we have socialist, centrally planed capitalism, (crony capitalism), where the profits are capitalized and the losses are socialized.  The solution is not more socialism, it's returning to free market capitalism.  Large corporations derive their power through government, the solution is not an even more powerful government, that just gives the crony's more power.  The solution is less government.  The problem with government picking winners and losers is invariably it picks their friends as winners and it's enemies as losers.   Bye-bye democracy.

The point was made that the biggest failure was not articulating a viable socialism.  Well that's because socialism is not viable!

The point was also made that the young prefer socialism over capitalism, if you were promised something for nothing over having to work for a living which would you choose?    It reminds me of a famous quote from a OWS reveler, "we can have free food and free housing and the community will provide!".  Someone forgot to tell him that he IS part of the community.

Detroit is what happens when you promise something for nothing, eventually the bill comes due and you can't pay it.  You tax the rich so the rich leave. You tax business so business leaves.  Because the rich and business leaves people leave and your tax base shrinks so you raise taxes even more.  Thus begins the death spiral of big government socialism.

You are seeing it nationally now.  Tax and regulate business so business leaves, tax the rich so the rich leave, (thousands a year currently), your tax base shrinks to you hear the clarion call "RAISE TAXES".  Of course when you do that you merely accelerate the above.  Meanwhile social security goes insolvent in 2033, Medicare goes insolvent in 2023, disability goes insolvent in in 2016!  Government can't even agree on the social security fix so they aren't even talking about Medicare or disability.

It's real simple, if you don't like banks don't borrow, if you don't like big oil ride a bike.  Just be willing to live with your decisions.  The world is capitalist for a reason, it works.  Free market capitalism is the only system that improves quality and decreases cost, completion is the key.  With government there is no free market or competition, a recipe for disaster.

Sorry but I just had to let my libertarian beast out!

[Besoeker]

Phil, on 29 July 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Very sorry but what a load of crap!   

Hope that wasn't directed at me............

[Dingo]

The nonexistent "free market" is like "god", it's the imaginary go to place when you want to find the cosmic answer to societies problems. Detroit went down the drain in large part because there were cheaper places to manufacture cars and we forgot that profits aren't everything.

In a nation state society there is nothing that does not involve government at some level. More or less government is a false choice. The real choice is good or bad government, good or bad laws, good or bad regulations. The private sector belongs in the realm of a public trust chartered to allow a profit but only to serve the public good. When the private sector breaks free of this restraints and converts the government into being a servant of their special interests then you get a lot of what we have today.

[Phil]

It was directed at the video.

Our markets are largely free, it's the few places where it isn't that cause the problems.  Detroit promised unsustainable benefits to unions just like GM did.  Funny how Honda, Kia, BMW, etc. can build cars in non union shops quite successfully and there are more foreign car companies opening up manufacturing here all the time.  They pay less but the cost of living is way less to the standard of living is much higher.

Ask GM about profit's, they may have something to say on the matter. No profits, no jobs.  No profits, no investors, no union pension funds.

Yes some level of government is necessary but the larger government is the more in can be corrupted.  That is what is happening in this country now.  Government does not create wealth, it can only exist by leaching off the profits off the wealth creators.  Detroit died because it tried to leach too much and killed the host.

Sorry but this nation was founded on we the people, not we the government.  Government exists to serve the people, not the other way around.  The public trust is served best by profitability, not by an over reaching, over controlling government.  Government couldn't be bought if it wasn't for sale.  Business couldn't corrupt government if government wasn't corruptible.  The blame lies entirely with government greed.

It is benevolent government that is the non-existent God.  Clearly we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Dingo]

Phil, on 29 July 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

Government couldn't be bought if it wasn't for sale. Business couldn't corrupt government if government wasn't corruptible.  The blame lies entirely with government greed.

This deserves its own stand-alone moment. This is where "free market" as God takes you, government as sin.

And here we have some of the efficiencies of the "free market" in action.

[Phil]

If you had an affair do you think your wife would buy the excuse it was the girls fault?  "It's not my fault I'm corruptible and have no moral responsibility, the evil women, (corporations), made me do it!"    Sorry, that doesn't fly.   When corporations lobby the government, they are acting in their constituents, (stock holders), best interest.  When government allows itself to be corrupted, are they acting in the best interest of their constituents?

Government IS evil, even the founding fathers knew this.  That's why the constitution is written specifically to LIMIT power of the state while the individual reigns supreme, That's why we are set up as three branches with checks and balances.  "We the people", not we the collective, not we the central authority, not we the common good.  We are not all saints so some government is necessary, necessary evil if you wish.  But if people are made miserable for the common good, is it really the common good, or someone's pet idea of the common good?  What gives him the right for force his version of the common good on the rest of us?

Corporations have never coerced me to do something, they may have temped me and occasionally I take the bait but it's my decision.  Government is ALWAYS coercing me to do things.  Which is the more evil, corporate temptation, or government coercion?  At least for me that's an easy call.  There are bad apples in both corporations and government, I guarantee they are far more destructive in government because government IS force.

In an ideal world where there was moral responsibility, where there was no corruption, government could be trusted to be in the best interests of the people.  On the other hand in that ideal world we wouldn't even need government because there was moral responsibility and no corruption.   

Government IS sin, therefore it has to limited to it's absolute minimum.  In free market capitalism it means setting the rules, making sure everyone plays by them, and getting out of the way.  It does not mean meddle, meddle, meddle, micro manage, pick winners and losers, (particularly not pick your friends as winners and your enemies as losers!), socialize losses, etc.

I will say that I've worked for corporations all my life and have nothing but praise for the experience, they have given me a fairy tale life, and through the market they continue to via my investments.  Yes, I've run into the occasional A hole but who hasn't in any endeavor?  Listening to the propaganda you'd think that "mister corporation" gets up every morning, twirls his evil mustache, and ponders how to destroy the planet and enslave the population even more that day.  Sorry, that's not even close to the norm.  For every corporation that does something stupid there are thousands that don't.  You don't hear about them because that isn't news.

[Dingo]

I get it Phil - corporations good, government bad. How about fingers good, hand bad? If the finger gets infected it's the hand's fault, right?

Bertrand Russell and his crowd may have got it correct. We've become so lost in our odd culturally evolved mumbo jumbo rhetoric that it no longer refers to anything real. I guess once you get the real out of the way then that clears the way to making a direct appeal to God or some God equivalent which has its own charms.

For me the craziness takes me back to my first history lesson ie. Columbus discovered America. Still so much to unload.

[Phil]

No you don't get it, both are good and bad!    The difference is government has the force of law behind it, thus more dangerous.  There are bad apples in all endeavors, but government is ultimate power so bad apples in government are particularly bad.  Again, you don't have a choice with government.

If the finger gets infected because the has was where it shouldn't be the yes it is the hands fault!

Russell's comment is so vague I can agree with it, likely for a different reason than you do. I always try to deal in reality, unfortunately it is tough to ferret it out with all the24/7 propaganda from all sides.  In the end my gauge is what works and what doesn't.  That's why I say ignore propaganda from both sides, ignore "good intentions", results are the only thing that matters in the end.  The corporate world has worked for me, capitalism has worked for me, loans have worked for me, all because I have used each responsibly.  On the other hand government has always stuck their nose in my business, always limited my freedoms, always been a thorn in my side.  That is my reality, yours may vary.

[Dingo]

Phil, on 05 August 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

The corporate world has worked for me

That's a good argument. Well Mafia rubouts work for me. I mean whatever is pragmatic, right?

As an afterthought I've just got to insert this little piece on corporate love. It plays right to my point about the cultural skewing of normal language.

http://www.counterpu...orporate-style/

[Phil]

"It is no secret that corporations now wield immense power in our elections"  Obama got elected twice.  Either the premise is complete BS or Obama is owned by corporations, right?   "in our economy"  Well DUH!   "and even in how we spend time with our friends and families"  Obviously complete BS, no corporation controls how I interact with my friends and family.

In the liberal world Apple walked on water until they discovered all their wonderful products were built in China, nobody's perfect.

Did J&J maliciously set out to build bad hip replacements or did engineers do the best they could but it wasn't good enough?  I've worked in a dozen corps, at least twice I was brought in to fix incompetent implementations because they desperately didn't want field failures.  Now more than ever corporations don't want a black eye, communications are just too efficient.  There is even a corporate rule of thumb, it costs $10 to fix it in research, $1000 to fix it in design, $100,000 to fix it in production and $10 million to fix it in the field.  In every case there was pressure to get it right the first time, the loudest cries coming from the sales and marketing team that have to produce against a bad reputation.  People get fired for poor design choices, at least in the corporate world.

The Chicago democrat machine turned out well for my dad, as long as he registered democrat he always had a job.  As a teen I never got a ticket, a 5th of VO to the judge or officer took care of that, (what ticket! ).  My uncle owned three judges and dozens of cops.  That's the Chicago way, Obama's home turf.

The problem with demonizing corporations is there are millions upon millions who work for them and know it's BS.  As I mentioned there are bad apples in all endeavors, I just claim the ones in government are far more dangerous because they have the force of law behind them.  To the extent major corporations have control over us it's through government power, if government didn't have so much power over our lives, corporations wouldn't either.

I will end with this, in every corporation I've worked for, if anyone was caught cutting corners they were dealt with in short order, (I was hired twice because of it).  That doesn't mean all corps are run that way but from what I've discussed with other engineers, it's more the norm than not.  Corporations did not work for me because they were crooks, they worked for me because I either bailed them out of problems or kept them from getting into them.  I was highly valued and highly rewarded for that reason.

"Mr. corporation" does not get up every morning trying to find new ways to screw the planet, the CEO is not all powerful, etc.  corporations consist of hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands of individuals trying to do their best.  Some try to cheat to get ahead, they rarely, (but occasionally), get too far before they are found out.  At least in my experience it's over ambitious middle managers that get into trouble trying to impress the big boys.  I did know one that made it all the way to VP before being discovered and dismissed.

We obviously have different life experiences and we'll not convince each other to negate them so I'll bring the discussion back to are we in a corporate box.   The answer is yes, and we will remain so.  The only way to take power away from them is to either shrink government so they can't write the laws or socialize them which always leads to disaster.  If government did it's job many of the big ones would be busted up but when Obama was faced with banks too big to fail, he consolidated them so they are now to humongous to fail.  If anything we are headed to more corporate power, thanks to Obamacare you are now forced to buy insurance or face increasingly painful fines.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

This "the government is evil and must be destroyed" rhetoric is wearing thin..................

[Phil]

No, the evil part of government must be destroyed to it can return to it's original purpose, be of the people, by the people, for the people.

I could just as easily say "the corporations are evil and must be destroyed" rhetoric is wearing thin.....    Agreed?

[Dingo]

Maybe some day somebody will show me what part of the corporate world isn't saturated with government. It is oxygen and gravity to the corporations. Giving the corporation some sort of separable virtue of its own is about as meaningful as wondering how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. But for some reason our evolution  requires various forms of hand-finger conflicts. Private anything is nothing other than a publicly bestowed and/or protected right. If I go live in a cave deep in the wilderness and hunt, fish and gather in a supposed ultimate act of private independence it will be on publicly administered land and subject to their rules and limitations. The best you can hope for is their indifference.

Just for starters try staking out a private piece of land not defined by a public survey. The public sector has lots of expressions of itself. As interests they can turn upon each other like the Hatfields and McCoys. But they are all parts of the public family no matter how many linguistic tricks folks want to play.

[Dingo]

Phil, on 07 August 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

"Mr. corporation" does not get up every morning trying to find new ways to screw the planet,

You're right, the corporation is not a person and I might add should not be given Constitutional personhood as it enjoys now. However the people who work within the corporation including its public affiliates, particularly in management, to varying degrees understand that maintaining the corporation is critical to their jobs and dividends. In terms of the broader dynamics this corporate-government entity becomes an interest group and commonly as it grows more powerful and influential it does what interest groups do. It excessively feeds the part at the expense of the whole. The ultimate dark analogy would be a growing cancer.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Corporations are us bought the supremes but because they're in for the duration (or until they die off) we're
stuck with their bs.
A few senators have been trying to reverse citizens united (Franken for one) but it's pushing an 800 ton
boulder up a steep mountain.
It's bad enough when American millionaires influence our elections, but we have no way of knowing
how many foreign investors are spending money to sway the election the way they want it.

(Some tunes that the real Supremes could be applied to these supremes)-
It's the same old song.
Going down for the third time.
Nothing but heartaches.
And their classic- Stop in the name of love (changed to-continue in the name of money)