Dustoffer, on 16 May 2014 - 07:04 AM, said:
So, with all the red tape, the Gen IVs will not be enough in time. Non-emissions power is what is needed, with transportation, too.......
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7
Nuclear as religion sort of
Started by
Dingo
, May 26 2013 07:44 PM
283 replies to this topic
#241
Posted 16 May 2014 - 07:28 AM
So....Not enough time to design and build Gen IV (or other) nuclear power in sufficient quantity to displace fossil fuels before too much AGW "in in the pipeline." I have not yet seen a timeline that convinces me that enough renewables can be built to displace enough fossil fuels worldwide before an unpleasant amount of AGW is in the pipeline. CCS seems to be going nowhere. A grim outlook for our descendants.
#242
Posted 16 May 2014 - 09:30 AM
Dustoffer, on 16 May 2014 - 07:04 AM, said:
German weather is really lousy for solar.
Germany built Photon Labs, to do Real World Testing of Solar panels.
The single most important factor for German PV system operators is YIELD:
. . . how many kilowatt-hours per kW of installed power,
. . . flow from the PV system to the inverter,
. . . under All Real World Weather Conditions?
That's why German Solar Panels work better under poor weather conditions,
. . . than U.S.A. Solar Panels, which are NOT rated for YIELD, under Real World Weather Conditions.
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GermanSolar.jpg 11.26K
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Photon.jpg 9.01K
3 downloads
#244
Posted 17 May 2014 - 01:17 PM
Only the yellow and red areas are good for solar. That does not mean lousy places can't get PV power, it just takes inordinate amounts of panels and batteries. Fine if you are rich.
There are other maps with various alternative energy types in bolder colors. Wind is feasible in a much smaller area than solar, and wave energy next followed by tidal.
Those old style nuclear power plants were very complex! Hopefully only safe Gen IV waste using power plants will be allowed to replace environmentally much worse power plants. 500 years of power just from cleaning up waste of the past 50 years.
I think the modular design is the best, with breaking up the grid into new microgrids. In the sunbelt, every home and business can be independent, the same in areas of good wind, good waves, good tidal energy. Stepping up to areas already with hydro, or geo.
Then where they won't work, the modular G4.
The biggest factor is not technology or the people to do it, it is the economic condition of the area.
I would say that the USA 17.2 trillion in debt makes our economic condition, not too good.
The Europeans are also in bad shape. Actually, just about everywhere, there is an increasing debt.
Money debt, but even worse is the ecological debt......
There are other maps with various alternative energy types in bolder colors. Wind is feasible in a much smaller area than solar, and wave energy next followed by tidal.
Those old style nuclear power plants were very complex! Hopefully only safe Gen IV waste using power plants will be allowed to replace environmentally much worse power plants. 500 years of power just from cleaning up waste of the past 50 years.
I think the modular design is the best, with breaking up the grid into new microgrids. In the sunbelt, every home and business can be independent, the same in areas of good wind, good waves, good tidal energy. Stepping up to areas already with hydro, or geo.
Then where they won't work, the modular G4.
The biggest factor is not technology or the people to do it, it is the economic condition of the area.
I would say that the USA 17.2 trillion in debt makes our economic condition, not too good.
The Europeans are also in bad shape. Actually, just about everywhere, there is an increasing debt.
Money debt, but even worse is the ecological debt......
#245
Posted 17 May 2014 - 04:10 PM
Dustoffer, on 17 May 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:
Only the yellow and red areas are good for solar. That does not mean lousy places can't get PV power, it just takes inordinate amounts of panels and batteries. Fine if you are rich.
. . . yet they just generated 74% of their energy from renewables and
. . . how much does a Nuclear Gen IV Plant cost?
I can't seem to find the price on the internet.
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#246
Posted 17 May 2014 - 05:07 PM
$5 Billion, 30,000 Green Jobs, From Nigeria Solar Power
Nigeria, has signed a series of agreements with SkyPower FAS Energy,
. . . a joint venture between SkyPower Global and FAS Energy, to develop and operate,
. . .3,000 megawatts (MW) of utility-scale solar photovoltaic power plants over the next 5 years.
Solar PV demand across the continent is expected to reach up to 6 GW by 2018.
2014-05-17 Source: 3,000 MW
Nigeria, has signed a series of agreements with SkyPower FAS Energy,
. . . a joint venture between SkyPower Global and FAS Energy, to develop and operate,
. . .3,000 megawatts (MW) of utility-scale solar photovoltaic power plants over the next 5 years.
Solar PV demand across the continent is expected to reach up to 6 GW by 2018.
2014-05-17 Source: 3,000 MW
#247
Posted 18 May 2014 - 07:07 AM
I did qualify my statement with "That does not mean lousy places can't get PV power, it just takes inordinate amounts of panels and batteries. Fine if you are rich."
Nigeria is having it done, with dubious credit, and mainly by outsiders. Back in 2004 they had a population 10 times sustainable with a doubling time of 18 years. I wonder how long panels will stay up when primitives in a cult with AK47s are rampant.
Nigeria is having it done, with dubious credit, and mainly by outsiders. Back in 2004 they had a population 10 times sustainable with a doubling time of 18 years. I wonder how long panels will stay up when primitives in a cult with AK47s are rampant.
#248
Posted 18 May 2014 - 07:18 AM
eds, on 17 May 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:
$5 Billion, 30,000 Green Jobs, From Nigeria Solar Power
Nigeria, has signed a series of agreements with SkyPower FAS Energy,
. . . a joint venture between SkyPower Global and FAS Energy, to develop and operate,
. . .3,000 megawatts (MW) of utility-scale solar photovoltaic power plants over the next 5 years.
Solar PV demand across the continent is expected to reach up to 6 GW by 2018.
2014-05-17 Source: 3,000 MW
Nigeria, has signed a series of agreements with SkyPower FAS Energy,
. . . a joint venture between SkyPower Global and FAS Energy, to develop and operate,
. . .3,000 megawatts (MW) of utility-scale solar photovoltaic power plants over the next 5 years.
Solar PV demand across the continent is expected to reach up to 6 GW by 2018.
2014-05-17 Source: 3,000 MW
Impressive. It will increase installed generating capacity by about 50%.
Or even better would be if it is used to replace some of the existing fossil generation - currently accounts for about two thirds.
Being near the equator, it is well-situated to get good insolation, particularly in the arid northern regions.
#249
Posted 18 May 2014 - 07:34 AM
Dustoffer, on 18 May 2014 - 07:07 AM, said:
I did qualify my statement with "That does not mean lousy places can't get PV power, it just takes inordinate amounts of panels and batteries. Fine if you are rich."
Nigeria is having it done, with dubious credit, and mainly by outsiders. Back in 2004 they had a population 10 times sustainable with a doubling time of 18 years. I wonder how long panels will stay up when primitives in a cult with AK47s are rampant.
Nigeria is having it done, with dubious credit, and mainly by outsiders. Back in 2004 they had a population 10 times sustainable with a doubling time of 18 years. I wonder how long panels will stay up when primitives in a cult with AK47s are rampant.
#250
Posted 18 May 2014 - 07:45 AM
Besoeker, on 18 May 2014 - 07:18 AM, said:
Impressive. It will increase installed generating capacity by about 50%.
Or even better would be if it is used to replace some of the existing fossil generation - currently accounts for about two thirds.
Being near the equator, it is well-situated to get good insolation, particularly in the arid northern regions.
Or even better would be if it is used to replace some of the existing fossil generation - currently accounts for about two thirds.
Being near the equator, it is well-situated to get good insolation, particularly in the arid northern regions.
. . . without the cost of installing and maintaining poles and wires.
They also claim, that it saves water?
. . . but they don't seem to have anyway of measure that?
#252
Posted 18 May 2014 - 09:00 AM
eds, on 18 May 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:
The big claim is, that it can supply energy to very remote area's,
. . . without the cost of installing and maintaining poles and wires.
. . . without the cost of installing and maintaining poles and wires.
But, in the article cited, the proposal is for the installations to be in the Delta State which isn't actually one of the remote areas.
eds, on 18 May 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:
They also claim, that it saves water?
. . . but they don't seem to have anyway of measure that?
. . . but they don't seem to have anyway of measure that?
But, as I mentioned in another thread, the water isn't consumed.
So, I don't know about that claim.
TBH, I'd be a bit wary about any scheme that comes out of Nigeria. Corruption appears to be rife. I've had countless letters, faxes, and emails over the years promising a cut of a $20,000,000 scheme to help move funds - all I had to do was give them my bank details.......
Then there's Boko Haram. And I've seen a few grisly videos of killings.
Not a place I'd to take a holiday with children. Or at all.....
#254
Posted 19 May 2014 - 08:09 AM
neutron spectrum
(fast/ thermal) coolant temperature
(°C) pressure* fuel fuel cycle size(s)
(MWe) uses Gas-cooled fast reactors
http://www.world-nuc...clear-Reactors/
with updates here;
https://www.gen-4.or...gif-tru2014.pdf
Still, even the modular systems that could be mass produced, are in the range of coal fired plant costs.
Of course, unscrupulous investors want a big return on their investment in the coal plants. Their political clout is
probably too great to get a WWII type mobilization going to reduce costs and replace all bad power plants from Gens 1 through 3 along with all the fossil fueled power plants. At least, in time to have a real effect.
(fast/ thermal) coolant temperature
(°C) pressure* fuel fuel cycle size(s)
(MWe) uses Gas-cooled fast reactors
fast
helium
850
high
U-238 +
closed, on site
1200
electricity
& hydrogen
fast
lead or Pb-Bi
480-800
low
U-238 +
closed, regional
20-180**
300-1200
600-1000
electricity
& hydrogen
fast
fluoride salts
700-800
low
UF in salt
closed
1000
electricity
& hydrogen
fast
sodium
550
low
U-238 & MOX
closed
30-150
300-1500
1000-2000
electricity
Supercritical water-cooled reactorsthermal or fast
water
510-625
very high
UO2
open (thermal)
closed (fast)
300-700
1000-1500
electricity
Very high temperature gas reactorsthermal
helium
900-1000
high
UO2
prism or pebbles
open
250-300
hydrogen
& electricity
* high = 7-15 Mpa
+ = with some U-235 or Pu-239
** 'battery' model with long cassette core life (15-20 yr) or replaceable reactor module.
http://www.world-nuc...clear-Reactors/
with updates here;
https://www.gen-4.or...gif-tru2014.pdf
Still, even the modular systems that could be mass produced, are in the range of coal fired plant costs.
Of course, unscrupulous investors want a big return on their investment in the coal plants. Their political clout is
probably too great to get a WWII type mobilization going to reduce costs and replace all bad power plants from Gens 1 through 3 along with all the fossil fueled power plants. At least, in time to have a real effect.
#256
Posted 19 May 2014 - 09:56 AM
Like I said, they cost as much as a coal fired plant to put together, depending on how large, 30 to 50 million $ apiece. It is unfortunate that money is tight because of it(economics) being the first effect of gross overpopulation of humans.
This is interesting;
"
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
TECHNOLOGY ROADMAP
UPDATE
FOR GENERATION IV NUCLEAR ENERGY SYSTEMS
–
JANUARY 2014
7
Executive
summary
Nuclear power plants, which produce low
-
carbon electricity at stable and competitive costs,
constitute an element of the solution to global warming and a means of delivering power to
emerging and developed countries. Further development of nuclear technology is needed to
meet future energy demand.
The Generation
IV International Forum (GIF) was created in January 2000 by 9 countries, and today has 13 members,
all of which are signatories of the founding document, the GIF Charter.
2
GIF defined in its
Technology Roadmap3
four goal areas to advance nuclear energy into its next,
“fourth” generation (see Figure ES.1):•
sustainability; safety and reliability; economic competitiveness, proliferation resistance and physical protection.
Figure ES.1:
Generations of nuclear power: Time ranges correspond to the design
and the first deployments of different generations of reactors
The
Technology Roadmap
also defined and planned the necessary R&D to achieve these goals
and allow for the deployment of Generation IV energy systems after 2030. Generation IV nuclear
energy systems include the nuclear reactor and its energy conversion systems, as well as the
necessary fuel cycle technologies.'
The Fukushima Daiichi accident demonstrated the need for reliable residual heat
removal over long periods as well as the necessity to exclude significant off-site releases
in the case of a severe accident. For the Generation IV systems, there is a set of additional
questions that have to be analysed in detail, as compared to the issues to be addressed
for advanced light water reactors. These relate in particular to:
•the use of non-water coolants in most Generation IV designs;
•
higher operational temperatures; •higher reactor power density;
•
in some cases, close location or integration of fuel-cycle or chemical facilities"
https://www.gen-4.or...gif-tru2014.pdf
.
Their goals for 2030, although laudable, are insufficient to stop the Arctic methane Death Spiral. It would have to be basically done without profit as fast as possible without too much impediment. If it is not possible to reduce emissions 90% from 2000 levels in time(2023?), the biosphere will be too malevolent for life, possibly until nova. It may have a 10 million year recovery, but we won't know in this world.
This is interesting;
"
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
TECHNOLOGY ROADMAP
UPDATE
FOR GENERATION IV NUCLEAR ENERGY SYSTEMS
–
JANUARY 2014
7
Executive
summary
Nuclear power plants, which produce low
-
carbon electricity at stable and competitive costs,
constitute an element of the solution to global warming and a means of delivering power to
emerging and developed countries. Further development of nuclear technology is needed to
meet future energy demand.
The Generation
IV International Forum (GIF) was created in January 2000 by 9 countries, and today has 13 members,
all of which are signatories of the founding document, the GIF Charter.
2
GIF defined in its
Technology Roadmap3
four goal areas to advance nuclear energy into its next,
“fourth” generation (see Figure ES.1):•
sustainability; safety and reliability; economic competitiveness, proliferation resistance and physical protection.
Figure ES.1:
Generations of nuclear power: Time ranges correspond to the design
and the first deployments of different generations of reactors
The
Technology Roadmap
also defined and planned the necessary R&D to achieve these goals
and allow for the deployment of Generation IV energy systems after 2030. Generation IV nuclear
energy systems include the nuclear reactor and its energy conversion systems, as well as the
necessary fuel cycle technologies.'
The Fukushima Daiichi accident demonstrated the need for reliable residual heat
removal over long periods as well as the necessity to exclude significant off-site releases
in the case of a severe accident. For the Generation IV systems, there is a set of additional
questions that have to be analysed in detail, as compared to the issues to be addressed
for advanced light water reactors. These relate in particular to:
•the use of non-water coolants in most Generation IV designs;
•
higher operational temperatures; •higher reactor power density;
•
in some cases, close location or integration of fuel-cycle or chemical facilities"
https://www.gen-4.or...gif-tru2014.pdf
.
Their goals for 2030, although laudable, are insufficient to stop the Arctic methane Death Spiral. It would have to be basically done without profit as fast as possible without too much impediment. If it is not possible to reduce emissions 90% from 2000 levels in time(2023?), the biosphere will be too malevolent for life, possibly until nova. It may have a 10 million year recovery, but we won't know in this world.
#257
Posted 19 May 2014 - 10:15 AM
Dustoffer, on 19 May 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:
Like I said, they cost as much as a coal fired plant to put together, depending on how large, 30 to 50 million $ apiece.
https://www.gen-4.or...gif-tru2014.pdf
https://www.gen-4.or...gif-tru2014.pdf
. . . but I did find "Multi-Billion" and "Several-Billion."
#258
Posted 19 May 2014 - 11:57 AM
Austin Energy has signed a power purchase agreement for,
. . . the largest single solar power plant in Texas,
. . . 150 megawatts due to be completed in 2016.
Follow the money:
. . . cheaper than gas,
. . . 1/2 the cost of coal, and
. . . almost 1/3 the cost of nuclear.
2014-05-19 Source: Austin Energy
. . . the largest single solar power plant in Texas,
. . . 150 megawatts due to be completed in 2016.
Follow the money:
. . . cheaper than gas,
. . . 1/2 the cost of coal, and
. . . almost 1/3 the cost of nuclear.
2014-05-19 Source: Austin Energy
Attached Files
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AustinEnergy.jpg 178.48K
0 downloads
#259
Posted 19 May 2014 - 12:41 PM
eds, on 19 May 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:
Austin Energy has signed a power purchase agreement for,
. . . the largest single solar power plant in Texas,
. . . 150 megawatts due to be completed in 2016.
Follow the money:
. . . cheaper than gas,
. . . 1/2 the cost of coal, and
. . . almost 1/3 the cost of nuclear.
2014-05-19 Source: Austin Energy
. . . the largest single solar power plant in Texas,
. . . 150 megawatts due to be completed in 2016.
Follow the money:
. . . cheaper than gas,
. . . 1/2 the cost of coal, and
. . . almost 1/3 the cost of nuclear.
2014-05-19 Source: Austin Energy
I think it's laudable. Anything that can displace fossils merits accolades.
But I still have this little niggle about storage. I've given curves and some calculations for solar PV. Insolation varies over the course of the day and, of course, isn't there during the night.
We need utility scale storage and we don't yet have that - yet.
And that's a constraint we need to solve.
#260
Posted 20 May 2014 - 10:28 AM
1.) Nissan Harvests Solar Power With World’s First Large-Scale Energy Storage System
Brandon Baker | May 13, 2014 4:39 pm | Comments
"Cars have long been Nissan’s primary business, but the company is looking for alternative uses for its electric vehicle (EV) batteries.
Along with Sumitomo Corp. and seven other companies, Nissan has unveiled 4R Energy, a joint venture using 16 lithium-ion batteries from EVs to store a solar farm’s power output help monitor energy fluctuations. The energy comes from Hikari-no-Mori, or “Forest of Light,” a solar farm with 36,000 solar panels on the man-made island of Yumeshima in western Japan’s city of Osaka."
http://ecowatch.com/...storage-system/
2.) Texas Tackles Electricity Storage
Enlarge photo by: Kate Galbraith
"Dozens of gray compartments, lined neatly in rows, inhabit a box-like concrete building on the edge of the impoverished border town of Presidio. The only sound, aside from occasional clanking, is the whirring of air-conditioners to keep the compartments cool.
This $25 million contraption is the largest battery system in the United States — locals have dubbed it “BOB,” for Big Ole Battery. It began operating earlier this year, and it is the latest mark of the state’s interest in a nascent but rapidly evolving industry: the storage of electricity."
http://www.texastrib...ricity-storage/
Of course there is the fact of thousands of homes and businesses with their own various battery systems of long use, like my house for 16 1/2 years.
3.)Another battery blueprint for alternative energy;
https://www.sciencen....6acee-93287133
Excerpt;
"A new battery that relies on cheap organic molecules could help stockpile energy from renewable sources such as solar and wind power for use on cloudy and breezeless days.
Scientists have grappled with ways to bank power from intermittent energy sources because municipal power grids demand a continuous flow.
The new battery relies on quinones, common chemicals found in many forms of life that help hold energy for later use, Harvard researchers report in the Jan. 9 Nature. Previous designs of similar batteries have used metal compounds, which can be expensive, rather than quinones.
The device is a type of flow battery, in which two separated liquids pass in and out of a cell with electrodes. A membrane in the middle of the cell prevents the two solutions from mixing but allows ions to travel between them. To charge the battery, electricity causes a quinone-carrying liquid to accept electrons from the current and protons from the other liquid, containing bromide. The liquids then flow out of the cell and into storage containers. To extract energy from the battery, the liquids pass back though the cell and undergo the reverse chemical reaction."
4.) Cheaper green energy storage solution invented by Calgary profs
[img]https://s2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/IG6s1HgWcK7zYFA5VpYiYw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9Zml0O2g9NDU-/http://l.yimg.com/os/153/2012/07/18/cbclogo-sm-sharp-175812-jpg_045904.jpg[/img]CBC – Fri, 29 Mar, 2013
https://ca.news.yaho...-181630427.html
I see no real storage problem for alternative non-emissions energy. Great for areas with enough wind, solar, wave, tidal, and other hydro, but still needing a large battery bank. Modular Gen IV is for everywhere else, even replacing diesels on big ships, along with sails, wind generators, and solar electric.
ANYTHING to lower total HGHGs, and ANYTHING that helps absorb HGHGs, is needed, all within a decade, installed and running!
https://www.youtube....h?v=qlTA3rnpgzU
YOWZA!!!
Brandon Baker | May 13, 2014 4:39 pm | Comments
"Cars have long been Nissan’s primary business, but the company is looking for alternative uses for its electric vehicle (EV) batteries.
Along with Sumitomo Corp. and seven other companies, Nissan has unveiled 4R Energy, a joint venture using 16 lithium-ion batteries from EVs to store a solar farm’s power output help monitor energy fluctuations. The energy comes from Hikari-no-Mori, or “Forest of Light,” a solar farm with 36,000 solar panels on the man-made island of Yumeshima in western Japan’s city of Osaka."
http://ecowatch.com/...storage-system/
2.) Texas Tackles Electricity Storage
- by Kate Galbraith
- Nov. 7, 2010
Enlarge photo by: Kate Galbraith
"Dozens of gray compartments, lined neatly in rows, inhabit a box-like concrete building on the edge of the impoverished border town of Presidio. The only sound, aside from occasional clanking, is the whirring of air-conditioners to keep the compartments cool.
This $25 million contraption is the largest battery system in the United States — locals have dubbed it “BOB,” for Big Ole Battery. It began operating earlier this year, and it is the latest mark of the state’s interest in a nascent but rapidly evolving industry: the storage of electricity."
http://www.texastrib...ricity-storage/
Of course there is the fact of thousands of homes and businesses with their own various battery systems of long use, like my house for 16 1/2 years.
3.)Another battery blueprint for alternative energy;
https://www.sciencen....6acee-93287133
Excerpt;
"A new battery that relies on cheap organic molecules could help stockpile energy from renewable sources such as solar and wind power for use on cloudy and breezeless days.
Scientists have grappled with ways to bank power from intermittent energy sources because municipal power grids demand a continuous flow.
The new battery relies on quinones, common chemicals found in many forms of life that help hold energy for later use, Harvard researchers report in the Jan. 9 Nature. Previous designs of similar batteries have used metal compounds, which can be expensive, rather than quinones.
The device is a type of flow battery, in which two separated liquids pass in and out of a cell with electrodes. A membrane in the middle of the cell prevents the two solutions from mixing but allows ions to travel between them. To charge the battery, electricity causes a quinone-carrying liquid to accept electrons from the current and protons from the other liquid, containing bromide. The liquids then flow out of the cell and into storage containers. To extract energy from the battery, the liquids pass back though the cell and undergo the reverse chemical reaction."
4.) Cheaper green energy storage solution invented by Calgary profs
[img]https://s2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/IG6s1HgWcK7zYFA5VpYiYw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9Zml0O2g9NDU-/http://l.yimg.com/os/153/2012/07/18/cbclogo-sm-sharp-175812-jpg_045904.jpg[/img]CBC – Fri, 29 Mar, 2013
https://ca.news.yaho...-181630427.html
I see no real storage problem for alternative non-emissions energy. Great for areas with enough wind, solar, wave, tidal, and other hydro, but still needing a large battery bank. Modular Gen IV is for everywhere else, even replacing diesels on big ships, along with sails, wind generators, and solar electric.
ANYTHING to lower total HGHGs, and ANYTHING that helps absorb HGHGs, is needed, all within a decade, installed and running!
https://www.youtube....h?v=qlTA3rnpgzU
YOWZA!!!
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