43 replies to this topic

[Shortpoet-GTD]

I'm starting it ahead of time, and there will be more than just tonight's debate, so any
comments you may want to leave, can go here.

Can't wait to hear the backtracking from the myth man.

Hey; that's what he could do after he loses! Sell exercise bikes that only work
when you "back pedal" them.


Anyway-debate comments....

[Hayden]

Romney won. Kind of flat debate though.

[FamilyTreeClimber]

This may have been one of the worst debates I've seen in my life.  And, I can remember Carter-Ford!

Jim Lehrer lost control of the debate about 5 minutes into it.  Romney started taking extra turns to respond and it went downhill from there.  Both pushed Lehrer aside when their time was up.  It really came off as rude.  Lehrer was ineffectual.  It made the debate drag and seem repetitive.  I kind of phased out in the middle because it just was not a debate.  It was like two people just talking at each other.  I hope the rest aren't like this because if they are it's a complete waste of time.

What I saw is Romney changed several of his key views for the debate.  At times, he seemed to be debating himself and sometimes held opposite views from earlier in the debate.  Obama was cool and calm as usual, but it seemed to come off as dispassionate in the first half hour or so.  I thought he defended his programs fairly well.  I found it interesting that the majority of the debate seemed to be about getting Romney to be specific rather than having Obama defend his record.  I am sure that conservatives saw it completely opposite.

I thought the snap poll was interesting.  Those polled said Romney won overwhelmingly.  But, when asked what candidate they felt empathized with their issues, Obama came out on top with over 60%.  That number was higher than what the pre-debate poll number was.  So, I'm not sure if this is going to translate into improved numbers for Romney.  It appears that he succeeded as a debater, but maybe not so much with connecting with people.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

To the untrained eye of John Q. Public, it did look like romney won. But anyone knowing his past positions
on issues, knew he was lying with almost every sentence he spoke. I thought he did ok myself, and that's hard to say.

Maybe it is just his face, but does he ever get rid of that smirk?

But, the numbers he threw around; I felt Obama did not respond to and spoke in general stump speech terms.
I agree FTC, it was "I'll do this" and "I've done that" rather than a debate between the two.

Jim Lehrer gave way too much time to romney, didn't equal the time out properly, and did lose control.
He was harder on the audience about keeping quiet that on the two on the stage.
He oversaw it more like a groupie than a moderator.

They should have used Gwen Ifill, Charlie Rose; or those folks that oversee chess tournaments. "Time!"

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Forgot to mention-
myth is pro coal, made fun of green energies and his embrace of the Keystone pipe line was telling.
(For the kochroaches as they've become known to be called.)

They keep asking where his tax returns are. They were stashed under that mountaintop the coal industry
just blasted away.
He could go digging around in that toxic sludge to find them, or send ryan to retrieve them.

[Organgrinder Johnson]

Shortpoet-GTD, on 04 October 2012 - 02:21 AM, said:

To the untrained eye of John Q. Public, it did look like romney won. But anyone knowing his past positions
on issues, knew he was lying with almost every sentence he spoke. I thought he did ok myself, and that's hard to say.

Maybe it is just his face, but does he ever get rid of that smirk?

But, the numbers he threw around; I felt Obama did not respond to and spoke in general stump speech terms.
I agree FTC, it was "I'll do this" and "I've done that" rather than a debate between the two.

Jim Lehrer gave way too much time to romney, didn't equal the time out properly, and did lose control.
He was harder on the audience about keeping quiet that on the two on the stage.
He oversaw it more like a groupie than a moderator.

They should have used Gwen Ifill, Charlie Rose; or those folks that oversee chess tournaments. "Time!"

Shortpoet, Lehrer did lose control of the debate but people (news reports I saw) timed each man and Lehrer gave Obama approximately four minutes more time.

We'll see what happens in rounds two and three. Obama won't come off nearly as poorly next go round.

[Organgrinder Johnson]

FYI, I got the four-minute time from Jeff Greenfield's commentary. He reports politics for Yahoo News.  I tried to copy the info but it wouldn't port. Sorry.

[BuddhaStarlight]

I didn't watch. I'm voting for Obama either way, so it didn't really matter to me who "won."

[Hardison]

Romney was more aggressive in the debate. Pres Obama was almost eerily calm and composed. I only saw him almost lose his cool once. Romney lied through his teeth. It just solidified my view that he's a major BSer.  If he was Pinocchio, his nose would have grown half way to the moon.

I am a bit surprised that Pres Obama didn't call him out on all his bull, but there must have been a strategy behind it.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

I'm sure it's hard for an incumbent to listen to myths lies. Obama and his staff watch the campaign closely
and they know what myth is for and against. (Nothing for, all against)

But Obama had so many openings to knock it out of the park. Maybe some of it is his race. He didn't
want to come across as an angry black man, but from everything I've heard and read, he's just a calm person.
Not much riles him.

He is blasting myth on the campaign trail though. He said whoever was on that stage with him was not
the "real mitt romney"

Sure, myth had a "style" about him. Some call him a bully, the way he rambled on.
But it doesn't matter because everything he said was a lie.

“When I got on stage, I met this very spirited fellow who claimed to be Mitt Romney,” he said.
“But it couldn’t have been Mitt Romney, because the real Mitt Romney has been running around the country for the past year, promising $5 trillion dollars in tax cuts that favor the wealthy.
The fellow on stage last night didn’t seem to know anything about that.”

[FamilyTreeClimber]

I felt Obama did call Romney out.  He brought up Romney's tax plan repeatedly.  He called him out on Medicare (his plan does not allow opting into Medicare for new retirees.  They are stuck in the voucher systems trying to figure out who in the world will insure them.)  He pointed out that you can't close loopholes and come up with the money you need for the deficit.  The whole idea that he can fix the deficit by cutting small things like PBS (a whole $450 million of the $3 trillion deficit) is ludicrous.  He straightened Romney out on Medicare.  The way he did it was very calm, though.  Maybe people expected him to leap over the podium and wring Romney's neck.

I do wish that Obama made a clearer case for how screwed up the economy was in when he took over.  That was a Republican mess caused by Republican ideology. We were on the verge of collapse and my feeling is that you can cure that in 4 years.

I wonder if part of the strategy was to let Romney trap himself.  It seems to have worked in some respects because the fact checkers had a field day today.  Also, the first poll numbers came out (Ipsos/Reuters) post debate.  Romney's numbers went up with Republicans, who would have voted for him anyway, but they did not change with Independents.    Obama's numbers went up with Independents.  Maybe, like me, they were turned off by Romney's combative style...and the smirk.

Shortpoet, I have to agree.  You and I have been following the election since last year.  We know what Romney has said.  Others who don't pay attention, may or may not have watched the debate.  If they watched, they listened to Romney for the first time thinking he doesn't sounds so bad.  But you and I know he argued in favor and against many things he does not stand for and are not part of the official party platform.  If they didn't watch, they probably heard the pundits raving about Romney today.

We'll have to see if they are paying attention to the commentary after the fact and the fact checking.  I heard Romney modify his stance on Medicare, Taxes, Social Security, Education, Alternative Energy, and other issues.  He seems to think he can say whatever the crowd he is with wants to hear and no one will notice.  It almost seemed that what he was saying is Obama's plans are terrible, but I like Obama's plans.  I'll repeal them and then I will replace them with Obama's plans but with a new name.  He hates them but he wants them.  He hates Dodd Frank, Dodd Frank does good things, the banks don't need regulation, but I like regulation of banks, but I hate Dodd Frank.  It was too bizarre.

I think the next debate is the Town Hall.  I expect Obama to do much better in this format.  Romney is terrible when the public addresses him directly.  He is bothered by it and his answers are often flippant and arrogant.  Obama is much better talking person to person.    I just hope they don't see the questions beforehand.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

https://encrypted-tb...BV_jmwb0b5l3gaw

Here's the
transcript.

Edit-link added

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Here we go again.
Biden/ryan debate in about an hour or so.
Comments after welcome here.

(I know it will never happen, but I would love to hear Joe lip sync Jack Nicholson's movie quote-
"You can't handle the truth!" to ryan.)

[Organgrinder Johnson]

CNN says Ryan 48%.... Biden 44%, leaving 8% draw.   Not exactly the big win Obama's assistant campaign manager said it was.  Next week's town hall should be particularly good, I think.  Joe was agressive but too smarmy with the eye rolls, etc. Even an Obama supporter said they should have turned the laughing gas off 30 minutes sooner before they sent him out.  CNN also said Ryan came off better on foreign policy than expected and acted more presidential than the VP.  Biden complained he didn't get enough time and yet got about 90 seconds more than Ryan.

I would have liked to have heard more of what Ryan was trying to say but Biden kept interrupting. 81 times according to one source. Not respectful nor presidential but rude  and condescending.  Biden didn't help Obama. Ryan didn't hurt Romney.


Like most debates, each campaign think their guy had a huge victory.

On to the town hall where I expect we'll see a resurgent Obama.

[FamilyTreeClimber]

The CBS Snap poll was much better for Team Obama. Biden 50%, Ryan 31%, Tie 19%.  I doubt that it will affect the polls especially now that the Romney bounce is starting to fade, but you can expect solidification of the Democratic base.

I thought this was a very good night for Biden.  His arguments were well presented.  He is a person who knows his stuff, especially foreign policy.  And, he can speak from the heart when it comes to middle class issues since he has been there.

The debate became more about Ryan's budget, abortion stances, and Romney's foreign policy speeches than Obama's policies.  Ryan was weak on foreign policy and refused to give a straight answer on what they propose to do with Iran.  His answer seemed to be "we will do something.  It may be the same thing Obama is doing, but we'll call it something else."  He also never gave an answer on which loopholes could be cut to close the deficit.  Ryan was clearly flustered a couple of times by the moderator's insistence that he give a straight answer.

I didn't think it was polite when Biden laughed but the VP debate is usually less formal that the Presidential debate.  Note they sit at a table as if they are old friends.  I find it interesting that in the last debate when Romney interrupted Jim Lehrer and Obama, conservatives called it being aggressive, taking command, and being a leader.  When Biden did it, they called it being rude.

This was a much better debate than the first one.  Jim Lehrer had no control in debate 1.  He let Romney walk all over him on the first question and from there it went down hill.  Martha Radditch did an excellent job.  Not only did she keep both men focused, her follow up questions were pointed.  I thought she was very fair.  The only thing I didn't like was the last two questions.  I hate those questions that are "what type of man are you" and "what does your religion teach you about..."  It's like "if you were a flower, what kind of flower would you be."

[Shortpoet-GTD]

I thought Joe did great.
He was smiling a lot because he couldn't say liar after every sentence ryan spoke. And it may not matter much
in the long run, but by several social media accounts, Joe was the winner.

And I disagree about Martha. She kept it moving better than Lehrer, but she interjected her own thoughts
and opinions into it; and that's not her job.
ryan looked more nervous and upset too from the amount of water he drank.
He gave no details and never did give any specifics about any of their plans.

And ryan went to the same smirk school that mitt attends.   That condescending look they both have.
The only time ryan looked like a regular person was when Joe spoke of losing his wife and daughter in that
car accident.

[StevesWeb]

I was cooking while the debate was on so I heard more of it than I saw, but I agree that VP Biden did a good job, and I did not notice any of his famous gaffs either.

I thought Joe did a good job of demanding specifics and you'd have to have been half asleep not to notice those details were not forthcoming from Rep Ryan.

It did not seem as one sided as the trouncing that Myth gave to Obama, but I agree that Biden seemed to do better.

[FamilyTreeClimber]

I believe the next debate is going to suit Obama's style better than Romney.  Romney is very good at being aggressive, but he has no patience with people when speaking to them directly.   Obama relates more to individuals and will speak to people as if they have a half a brain.  Since the next debate will be in town hall meeting format, Romney is going to have to be careful about the way he presents himself.  He does not come off as empathetic or as if he cares what individuals are saying when he has to face them in this format.  Many of his damaging comments have come when he has been in this setting. Candy Crowley is the moderator.  I don't know how good she is.

Shortpoet, that is probably true that the moderator inserted herself too much.  But, these aren't real debates, are they?  When I think of debates I think of them in the format that was taught in school.  Points, counterpoints, rebuttals...there's a light and a bell that cuts you off.  You don't get 30 seconds or 3 minutes more.  You make your case and then that's it.  These debates are more of a show than anything.

I think Biden may have done well.  Conservative pundits are attacking him for being mean to Ryan (like Romney?) and they are attacking the moderator.

Stevesweb, I heard a comment that I think explains Joe's likability (outside of Republicans).  It was something to the affect of DC insiders cringe every time Biden makes a gaffe and they make a big stink about. They see it as awful.   But, the average American finds it endearing because in the weird way that Americans view politicians they believe he seems more like them if he makes verbal mistakes.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

That's what Obama said- "Let Joe be Joe." and he was.

[StevesWeb]

For me, personally, it is easy to identify with Joe Biden.  I started a summer job in a Pennsylvania steel mill before I had my HS diploma.  His story is similar to mine in a few ways.

FamilyTreeClimber, on 12 October 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

the average American finds it endearing because in the weird way that Americans view politicians they believe he seems more like them if he makes verbal mistakes.

To be completely honest this rings true here, as in it might apply.   The other thing I think about Joe is that in his heart he really does care about the little guy in the way that LBJ and FDR did, and Abraham Lincoln too.

Paul Ryan reminds me of an impatient apprentice vulture.  I just do not trust him.  I would not trust him for directions to the rest room.

I had serious differences with LBJ, but one must admit he did some good things.