15 replies to this topic

[Shortpoet-GTD]

I hadn't heard a word about this on the news or on-line; have you?

Texas, Washington state and in a suburb of Chicago. Hello?
Where's the coverage?????

Yearly shipping tonnage in Washington and Oregon alone is over 100 million tons.

The FRA is quick to point out that there were only 389 derailments this year
(Jan-April) compared to over 500 for the same period in 2011.
The total number of derailments in 2011? Almost 1,500!
I guess we should be "happy dancing" because there were less than
1500 derailments?

I'm a bit of a news junkie, and I've never heard a word about it. Why is that?

Coal dust accumulations along the tracks. Cause for concern? I would think so.
Even if it didn't cause this derailment or any others, it's an environmental issue,
don't ya think?
In this article, there are also several links to previous stories reported by Greenwire.
http://www.eenews.ne...re/2012/07/11/2

But then again, maybe there are hundreds of solar panels that were shipped via rail
and those trains ran off the tracks too. "solar dust on the tracks" could be very harmful.

[dconklin]

This is the first I have heard of this too! I didn't know they had that many derailments with any coal trains.  We have a coal train here, but that is not all they carry.  When it is the coal train it takes up to 20 minutes to finish going through and we walk a lot so we have got stuck waiting for this train.  We have a few trains around here, but mostly freight and our recent addition (not thrilled about it) is the garbage train bringing garbage from the cities through the town.  This train can be seen by my window so when garbage is on it, I am not a happy camper.

[Phil]

I don't think it's in the news because it isn't news.  Derailments happen all the time.  Coal cars, of course are nothing special.  If a hazardous substance is spilled then you will hear about it.

What surprised me is Oregon and Washington.  Are there coal mines here in WA?  I know 84% of our power comes from hydro with a very small portion coming from coal, nuclear, etc.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Montana-
http://coalexportaction.org/

TransAlta Coal Plant near Mt. Rainier, Washington.
Several in Wyoming too.
This link to the Sierra Club gives more details.
http://action.sierra..._Coal_Free_Tour

And this piece from Eco-centric about the coal mines in the US and shipping it to Asian countries. Lose/lose situation.
http://ecocentric.bl...xports-to-asia/

[Phil]

Well you learn something new every day!  I guess our county is blessed with an abundance of hydro.  Here's our breakdown:

Biomass: 0.29%
Coal: 4.88%
Hydroelectric: 83.89%
Landfill Gas: 0.01%
Natural Gas:: 1.93%
Nuclear: 8.86%
Other: 0.14%, (solar, wind, etc.)

Must be all those damn Seattlies using all that coal, shame on them!

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Phil, on 17 July 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

Well you learn something new every day!  I guess our county is blessed with an abundance of hydro.  Here's our breakdown:

Biomass: 0.29%
Coal: 4.88%
Hydroelectric: 83.89%
Landfill Gas: 0.01%
Natural Gas:: 1.93%
Nuclear: 8.86%
Other: 0.14%, (solar, wind, etc.)

Must be all those damn Seattlies using all that coal, shame on them!

Where did you get 4% use on coal? It's still up there around 35-50% depending on which site you read-but
still substantial. Or is that just for the Northwest area?
And it's not that they're using it that much in Seattle, but it's shipped out via rail overseas.

[Phil]

Those numbers come directly from our Clallam county PUD.

Clallam county is the upper most county in WA across the strait from Seattle.  It includes the Olympic mountains whose glaciers supply our drinking water.  It also includes the "Emarald forest", a rain forest that gets literally ten feet of rain a year.  Because all the rain is dumped on the south and west side of the Olympics, the east and north side is rather dry and sunny.  Sequim is so dry they had to irrigate to farm it.  It also includes Forks and Port Angeles of "Twilight" fame.  In Port Angeles you can catch a ferry to Canada.  It also includes the Elwha river whose dam was just removed and lake Crescent, on of the top 15 lakes in the country.  End of travelogue

As I mentioned on other threads, we have so much hydro our supplier pays a wind farm $20 million a year to shut down during the spring thaw and fall rains.  Because of the Olympic national forest and other private forest lands the population is relativly sparse, much of the land is in 5-10-20 and above acreage so not much power is required up here.  We do have Home Depot, Applebee's, Costco, and a Wal-Mart and Wal-Mart super center though!

[Shortpoet-GTD]

The concern is for the proposal for 6 more coal plants-
Longview, Washington
Bellingham, Washington
Grays Harbor, Washington
Coos Bay, Oregon
The Kinder Morgan terminal at Port of St. Helens, Oregon.
and the Ambre Energy project with facilities at the Port of Morrow and the Port of St. Helens, Oregon.

If the proposed coal export terminal in Bellingham were to become operational, (for example)
the number of coal train trips per day would be in the range about 16 to 18.
Each of the coal trains would be approximately a mile and a half in length, made up of 125 to 150 cars.

Law of averages dictates that trains derail, and the higher the traffic, this could happen more often.
I used to live in Coos Bay-why would anyone want to spoil that region so Asian countries can add more
emissions?
It's beyond understanding; especially since they are moving forward so quickly towards renewables.
And the few paltry jobs created are not worth the environmental damage, not to mention the health
issues of the mining crews.

http://earthjustice....ail-in-one-week

Several links to other stories on this site also.
http://www.coaltrainfacts.org/

It also relates back to this thread-
http://www.altenergy...disease-rising/

[Phil]

The last I heard China is powering up two coal fired elecric generation plants a week and will do so for 30 years.  That takes a lot of  coal, so much that they can't supply it all themselves.

Here is the grey area.  All this means a ton of jobs for Americans.  Yes black lung disease needs to be attacked vigorously, yes derailments should be minimized, yes it will add pollution.  On the other hand it is one product we can send to China instead of the other way around.  It's building solar panels that create paltry jobs, mining and shipping coal is a continuous process that means a lifetime of employment.  If we don't sell them coal someone else will, pollution will not be reduced but employment will be lost.  Spilling tons of coal is not like spilling barrels of oil, you can scoop it up and ship it off.  Coal dust in open air is a non issue.

We also have to look at the big picture, we are borrowing 40% of what we spend.  If you do the math we will be where Greece is before the end of the decade at this rate.  What we are doing simply can't continue, everyone knows this.  The latest tax proposal by the democrats would raise $40 billion, our deficits are running.$1.3 trillion.  Even with that tax we still have a $1.26 trillion problem.

What does this have to do with the price of eggs you say?    I think no matter who is elected some deep cuts in spending need to be made. That means more than ever jobs will be valuable and subsidies may be eliminated across the board.  What that leads me to is solar must be as cheap as possible to survive without subsidies, and coal jobs are better than no jobs.

I'm not saying this doesn't suck, but I am saying one has to deal with reality.  Think of all the jobs it would take to build and maintain that port.  Think of all the jobs to run and maintain the railways.  Would any coal miner be happy to lose their livelyhood?

It's all too easy to frame things in black and white, life is never that simple.  Of course I could be wrong.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Then an SPF of
568,325,628,654,359 wouldn't help much.

[Phil]

Since both China and India blew Obama off at the last climate conference SPF manufacturers are probably a good investment!

Seriously, China, India, Russia, etc. are going to do what they are going to do.  Brazil is burning down their rain forests to plant ethanol crops, thanks to $2 billion from us they are drilling a mile deeper than BP did off their shores, Canada is bulldozing their forests to strip mine the tar sands beneath, Russia is angling for ownership of the north pole for oil supremacy, etc., all these actions are beyond our control.  If we don't sell China coal, someone else will.  They just closed a $20 billion deal with Africa, you can bet it's to get at their resources.  The world is a competitive place and we don't set the rules.

All we can do is do the best we can here and be prepared for warmer weather.   I think we are on the right track with wind, solar, hydrogen, etc.  One of the big reasons I push for competive green energy is that is the only way these other countries will switch, China wouldn't need coal if solar were cheaper.

[aphil]

No I have not heard of this. Yes, you are a news junkie and that is good for us. We definitely stay informed through you. My first thought is there has to be a reason for so many derailments and an added costs for the clean up.
Shipping coal away to China and getting paid sounds doable. use the money to invest in cleaner energy.

[Mustaxina]

To me, this looks like an incredibly high number of derailments. 1,500 derailments a year means 4-5 derailments a day. Is it possible that they are using a very broad definition of the word "derailment"? It wouldn't be surprising. You know, the air transport industry also says that "95% of people involved in air accidents survive", but that's only because they use a definition of "air accident" that is so broad that it includes what you and I would consider petty events with no vital risk whatsoever. I would like to know what the number of "serious derailments" is, i.e. how many derailments result in death or significant damage to people or things.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

In searching the net for the total number, I ran across this coal train derailment that just happened.
http://www.wvnstv.co...rain-derailment
http://www.14news.co...ment-in-knox-co
http://www.kctv5.com...ina-sparks-fire
http://www.kxan.com/...-in-east-austin
http://www.theepocht...des-264033.html
Granted, not all of them were coal trains, but geezed-
it's a lot in just a short span of time.
Heat distorting the tracks is a major issue that will only continue to get worse.

According to this site, we should all move to Hawaii.
http://www.statemast...mber-per-capita

[steph84]

I haven't heard of this either. I'm sure it is quite common and just flies under the radar. The news is too busy reporting on Rob Pattinson and K-Stew.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

steph84, on 04 August 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

I haven't heard of this either. I'm sure it is quite common and just flies under the radar. The news is too busy reporting on Rob Pattinson and K-Stew.

They are not "important" enough to make the national news, but are reported locally.
At the moment, it's the Olympics and mittens not paying his taxes.