18 replies to this topic

[FamilyTreeClimber]

I saw a fascinating story on the news tonight.  Unfortunately, it's not on the website.  However, it was an update to this story:
http://abclocal.go.c...nt_7&id=8462082

Here's the background:
A group goes out regularly to pick up debris from the ocean.  They pick up piece by piece and haul it back to land where it is dumped.

They would like to make more of an impact.  They are using new technology that locates the biggest sections of litter, which is what they want to concentrate on.

But, they want to go one step further.  Japan has develop a way to turn plastic into fuel.  This group would like to buy the equipment that does this.  They would pick up the plastic.  But, instead of hauling it back to land, they would convert it to fuel to be used by their boat.  In this way, they would never bring the garbage back and they would not waste fuel going back and forth.

It sounds like an amazing idea, but it does bring up questions.  What type of fuel do you make from plastic?  Is it environmentally safe?  Would they be exchanging one problem (tons of plastic) for another (fuel emissions, possible leakage into the water)?

What do you think about this idea?  Does it sound like a viable way to get rid of the junk that is floating in the ocean?  Or, does it sound like another environmental problem waiting to happen?

[still learning]

 FamilyTreeClimber, on 27 June 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

What do you think about this idea?  Does it sound like a viable way to get rid of the junk that is floating in the ocean?  Or, does it sound like another environmental problem waiting to happen?

Doesn't sound viable to me.

Physically possible to turn plastic to fuel, yes, maybe even at sea, but sounds hugely expensive to do safely.
Pyrolysis of plastic to fuel isn't new (the article doesn't claim it's a new idea either)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrolysis
Gotta be careful with the process, not letting partially pyrolyzed stuff escape (or the finished fuel either.)  Recall the scent of burning plastic....

To make me think it's actually a good idea, I'd want to see some numbers on estimated cost (for the boat and for labor and all else) and the expected amount of fuel to be produced.

From all I've read, the plastic is hard to collect from the ocean, a lot there, sure, but spread out, a lot broken up into tiny fragments.  I think the expense of collecting the stuff would make the idea unviable, so I'd like to see numbers.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

May not be viable but I applaud their thinking "outside the box" and trying to come up with a solution. Yay!

[dissn_it]

It would be really good if they do find a clean way to do this. At least they are looking into ways of dealing with multiple problems. The debris field is a problem that seems like people are just now becoming aware of. It is great that they are attempting to deal with that and are also trying to find a way to do it more efficiently. Turning the plastic into fuel might not be the best way to accomplish this goal but I give them kudos for considering it as an option.

[FamilyTreeClimber]

The TV station added the story to their website.  The story is mostly about the app they are using to locate the piles of plastic.  You can view the video or read the story:
http://abclocal.go.c...ment&id=8716659

From what the group says, it is an option for them.  This is the quote from the interview:

"We have technology from Japan that actually converts the plastic that we find at sea, into fuel, so once we get offshore, in the open ocean, we can harvest plastic, convert it to fuel, put that fuel right back into the gas tanks in the boat. That way we don't have to go back to land to refuel, don't have to go back to land and landfill all the material we find. It's really a closed loop system," said Drobac."

Shortpoet, I like that they are coming up with new ideas, too.  They say theeir is enough plastic in the Pacific Ocean that it would be the size of Texas.  Seems to me as the ones who created the mess (humans) we have an obligation to try to clean it up.

[zararina]

The idea sounds good and great if can really happen.
Thinking how they could lessen the garbage and conserve fuel by making those waste plastics as fuel sounds a lot of benefits for the environment and for the people if the process of recycling plastics into fuel is also non polluting.

[JBMedia]

The idea sounds amazing. The story as you said is fascinating. However, I don't see it actually being able to happen. Although the idea and effort that would be put forth is highly honorable, there is no way to even offset the costs of doing this to be able to continue doing it which would cause a problem.

[FamilyTreeClimber]

I wonder if they have the opportunity to get the equipment donated as part of a research project.  I don't know what company in Japan makes the equipment.  But, if that were the case, then it would be much more likely to happen.

It is too bad a project like this couldn't happen on a larger scale.  Just think how much plastic a ship could haul in and convert to fuel.  That would make a huge impact.

[QuatreHiead]

I'm a little curious myself as to what this is in Japan they have developed that can convert plastic into fuel. Like you I would like to know what kind of fuel. Where there mentions of the company or university who conducted the research project?

[FamilyTreeClimber]

I went to the organization's website.  This is their material they have on how to convert plastic to fuel:
http://www.thecleano...astictofuel.php

They will use E-N-ergy’s Evolucient Systems "B-240 Continuous System Unit".  There is a graphic on that page that shows how it works.  It converts plastic into mixed light crude oil.  According to this page, the system is sponsored by the United Nations and is in use in African nations to reduce plastic waste.  So, it is something that is already being used somewhere in the world.

I found another page about this system.  It says the machinery cost $189,000.  It produces mixed crude oil at 24 cents a gallon.
http://www.energyreb...ucient-systems/

Does this information change anyone's mind about the feasibility of this idea?

[still learning]

 FamilyTreeClimber, on 02 July 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

Does this information change anyone's mind about the feasibility of this idea?

No.

Quotiing from the energyrebel website "We are a Product Promotion and information disseminating blogsite. We promote products from other companies"
Product promotion huh?.

Seems too good to be true, the 24 cents per gallon.  If true, I'd expect oil companies to be all over this, sounds cheaper than pumping crude out of the ground, certainly cheaper than deepwater oil, cheaper than tarsands oil.

It's pyrolysis.  Been around in one form or another for decades.  Did did some long ago in highschool chemistry.  Look at the Wikipedia entry.  It's useful, has a place, but it's a pretty mature technology, wouldn't expect momentous breakthroughs.

One thing, there's a nasty solid residue.  Could be a disposal problem at sea.

[FamilyTreeClimber]

As that link isn't from the company itself, I found one of the company's website:
http://e-n-ergy.com/

These are the products that they sell:
http://e-n-ergy.com/products/

E-n-ergy represents the company, Blest, in the United States, Canada, and South America.  So, E-n-ergy is their seller in these parts of the world.

I dug deeper to see if I could find the Japanese companies that makes these products.  This is the website for Blest Co., LTD, a plastic recycling company:
http://www.blest.co....in-english.html
Blest is involved in environmental technologies and sustainability products.

I won't summarize as I will probably mess up something in the transcription.  However, Blest explains how they convert plastic into oil on this page:
http://www.blest.co....-5english.html.

They claim that their machines are fitted with a filter that converts the emissions (hydrocarbons) into water and carbon dioxide.

I don't know enough about all this to say whether it can happen the way that this organization wants it to (converting the plastic patch to fuel), although it appears, their machines are already being used in some countries.  So, I'll let folks read through the material themselves and make up their own minds.

[Pat]

This sounds like it could be the answer to a very serious problem, are there more company's attempting to do the same type of process to reuse the plastic?

[ACSAPA]

 QuatreHiead, on 02 July 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

I'm a little curious myself as to what this is in Japan they have developed that can convert plastic into fuel. Like you I would like to know what kind of fuel. Where there mentions of the company or university who conducted the research project?

Of course Japan is the country that came up with the fuel from plastic. It seems like every time I read about some cool new technology, the Japanese are the ones who came up with it. I wonder where that creativity comes from. Do they raise their kids in a way that encourages them to think of multiple solutions to a problem?

It would be awesome if this plastic-to-fuel thing is non polluting. We want to solve the plastic trash problem but not create other problems.

[QuatreHiead]

 FamilyTreeClimber, on 03 July 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

.....

I dug deeper to see if I could find the Japanese companies that makes these products.  This is the website for Blest Co., LTD, a plastic recycling company:
http://www.blest.co....in-english.html
Blest is involved in environmental technologies and sustainability products.

I won't summarize as I will probably mess up something in the transcription.  However, Blest explains how they convert plastic into oil on this page:
http://www.blest.co....-5english.html.

They claim that their machines are fitted with a filter that converts the emissions (hydrocarbons) into water and carbon dioxide.

I don't know enough about all this to say whether it can happen the way that this organization wants it to (converting the plastic patch to fuel), although it appears, their machines are already being used in some countries.  So, I'll let folks read through the material themselves and make up their own minds.

Sadly the link that goes over how the process works isn't accessible to me for whatever reason. It gives a 404 error. Thanks however for looking into this more! I hate to be a "Dan Downer" on this one, however I agree with still learning and I'm rather skeptical. It doesn't look like anything new (considering it is just a pyrolysis process) it just is a method applied to something new or marketed in a way that people have finally taken notice of it.

I also wonder what the upkeep cost is of this kind of system and how efficent it is, because I'm betting that would be part of why it's not been considered something to pursue on a larger scale (like oil companies using it). I'm not sure I buy that water and CO2 are the only by-products of this process either... I don't know what the filter is about... but what is it filtering away? I doubt it does something itself to change everything put out into water and CO2.

Thanks for sharing and doing that extra research! I will have to look into this more one day perhaps and see where they intend to go with it.

[FamilyTreeClimber]

QH, I wasn't sure what link wasn't working for you, but the last link in my last post had a period after the html for some reason.  This is the correct link.  It goes to the question and answer information:
http://www.blest.co.jp/s-5english.html

ACSAPA, Do the Japanese do innovation better than us?  I don't think so.  However, what I do think is that Japan isn't wasting a lot of time working on it's military prowess.  It seems to me if you aren't spending time and effort on military efforts, you can focus on other things.  Since Japan wasn't allowed to have a military for so many years after WWII, it probably gave the ability to put their efforts elsewhere.

[ACSAPA]

 FamilyTreeClimber, on 09 August 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

ACSAPA, Do the Japanese do innovation better than us?  I don't think so.  However, what I do think is that Japan isn't wasting a lot of time working on it's military prowess.  It seems to me if you aren't spending time and effort on military efforts, you can focus on other things.  Since Japan wasn't allowed to have a military for so many years after WWII, it probably gave the ability to put their efforts elsewhere.

The Japanese have holograms that you can touch, computer discs made of recycled paper so that you can cut them up and destroy the data, realistic androids that have conversations with each other, a robot called the Kuratas that you can ride inside of and fire weapons. A lot of the electronics that we use came from Japan. They invented the CD player in 1982, the synthesizer in 1983, the VCR in 1971, DVD's, Flash memory.  I think that's why when I hear about a new technology, I expect it to be from Japan.
I don't mean anything negative about America, my home, when I say that.  It's just that turning plastic into fuel sounds like something Japan would come up with.

Here's a video of a lifelike female android, from Japan.  They're developing her to carry on conversations with old people in hospitals and cheer them up since a nurse can't sit with them all day.

[DeeNeely]

This is a great piece of information. I work with a group dedicated to the creation of sustainable floating islands and the machinery looks like a nice fit.

I think one of the things which needs to be mentioned is that light crude isn't a fuel. Its a fuel source which generally has to be fractionated into gasoline and different subjects.

[Shortpoet-GTD]

Update-
Pharrell Williams is partnering with a jeans company to make jeans out of plastic ocean trash.

(You may know him from the soundtrack of Despicable Me)
Excellent idea.
http://grist.org/lis...-ocean-plastic/